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I'm really surprised about this. I mean he knew you were going to do another pull. He knew it was going to get published on forums. He knew you were not happy with the first go around. You would think he would have gone all out on your tune to save face.

That gain hardly seems worth the effort of loading the tune let alone the price and warranty void issue.
 

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Discussion Starter #45 (Edited)
I wonder if their results in their dyno are accurate or fabricated.

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Well, I can't speak for their dyno, but I can speak for this one. I have routinely taken cars off this dyno and gone straight to the track and been within 1% of the dyno results vs calculated hp based on vehicle speed, weight, and ET.

But, I'm not trying to sell a product, I'm the end user and that was not worth the time and effort when the "box" tune from SCT outperformed it.

I'm driving it on the SCT tune now and did a cold start log of it this morning and the surge at 2900 RPM's is gone. One log isn't enough to say yeah or nah, but it was certainly smoother this morning when I left. I can't even see a slight stumble at 2900 whereas before it would make you flinch trying to get past that point.

But, anyways, I tried to be fair and give them the opportunity to make up for the initial fiasco and the results don't justify it. Lesson learned.....but, this is why I normally tune my own junk.
 

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Well, I can't speak for their dyno, but I can speak for this one. I have routinely taken cars off this dyno and gone straight to the track and been within 1% of the dyno results vs calculated hp based on vehicle speed, weight, and ET.

But, I'm not trying to sell a product, I'm the end user and that was not worth the time and effort when the "box" tune from loaded from SCT outperformed it.

I'm driving it on the SCT tune now and did a cold start log of it this morning and the surge at 2900 RPM's is gone. One log isn't enough to say yeah or nah, but it was certainly smoother this morning when I left. I can't even see a slight stumble at 2900 whereas before it would make you flinch trying to get past that point.

But, anyways, I tried to be fair and give them the opportunity to make up for the initial fiasco and the results don't justify it. Lesson learned.....but, this is why I normally tune my own junk.
I'm interested to see what you can muster out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
It'll be a little bit before I really screw with it. I gotta get off my a$$ and get the turbos done on the truck first. Tired of looking at THAT big expensive lawn ornament.

Once that's all back up and running I'll get to tuning on this thing.
 

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Discussion Starter #48 (Edited)
As I said I would, here are two cold start and drive data log shots with the SCT baseline tune on the car. The 2900 RPM surge is GREATLY diminished, it doesn't even show in the logs. Can you still notice it? Yes, barely. In both of these I was trying to put the car in the situation where you normally feel that surge and it was almost non-existent. It WAS there, but the easiest way to describe the difference is it's like going over a crack in the road vs going over a speed bump. Once the car hit 150*, there was no noticeable surge at all.

I tried to match the run conditions as close as I could and I drove the same route as I usually do. Temps and throttle angles are as close I could feasibly get them.

In both of these logs I circled the spots where the surge normally occurs and you can't even see the slightest blip when TRYING to put the car in that situation. Two cold starts on separate days.....





Here is what the car WAS doing....



 

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Question on baseline SCT

Trying to get up to speed on tuning terminology. When you say base SCT tune are you referring to the tune that came stock on the car or a different tune was included with an SCT brand programming/tuning device? Thanks.
 

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Trying to get up to speed on tuning terminology. When you say base SCT tune are you referring to the tune that came stock on the car or a different tune was included with an SCT brand programming/tuning device? Thanks.
The stock tune on the Sct device from sct
 

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Discussion Starter #52
I have the Advantage Pro-Racer software on the way so I may get to messing with it sooner rather than later. Just gotta get familiar with the software, I've always been an EFILive guy.
 

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But didn't you say he had everything spot on? Do you really think you can get more hp out of it? What were your peak gains over stock?


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Discussion Starter #54 (Edited)
The peak gains over stock were 7 hp with the Bama tunes and 10 hp with the SCT tune. Best stock was 380, Bama was 387, the SCT tune did 390.

The changes being made in the timing looked good, but the overall impact was just less reliance on the knock sensors to correct for over / under timing. Timing is where a lot of your gains are made but the other big impact is the cam timing which had very little done that I could see. Unless you get more air to the motor you're not going to see big power increases and this is where the cam timing comes in.

What I normally expect to see is about 9 - 9.5 hp at the wheels for every lb/min of air you get to the motor and here there was no real peak gain, only about 1 lb/min, it was in the 41 - 42 lb/min range. 41 * 9.5 = 389, which is right where the car did. The gains are going to be dialing in the cam timing to get as much air into the motor as possible.

The timing is pretty close to maxed out, but there is a lot of room to go on the cam timing. Sometimes the gains you see with a new cam or cam timing aren't necessarily higher peak values but what you get is an extended power curve. With variable cams you can see the power come in much earlier and with actual cam replacement you see the power get extended farther out into the RPM's before it tapers off.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
This may help to better explain what I was saying above. I know these data logs can be confusing to look at if you don't quite know what you're looking at, but you should at least be able to see the trend here....

In these logs I have the MAF data highlighted showing the airflow in lbs/min. Normally, you can expect 9 - 9.5 hp for every lb/min of air you get to the motor. Obviously, this is dependent on timing and fuel, but without the airflow you're not making power (think turbo's, superchargers, nitrous....what are you adding? Air)

In all of them, look at the general shape of the MAF curve and look at the peak number in the box that I highlighted near the bottom. See an similarities? They all look the same right? IF you look a little deeper (sorry, it only let's me highlight one parameter at a time), take a look at the intake and exhaust cam timing....looks pretty similar, right?

The biggest difference you are seeing here in these 3 tunes is the how the timing is handled. In stock form, the timing is highly retarded and depends on the knock sensors to add timing (this is for running lower grade fuels and preventing pinging). On the Bama tune, you see the timing is smoother, but still VERY close to stock values. It's main advantage being it's not relying on the knock sensors so much to compensate, which is why the tune is more fuel specific. Then look at the SCT tune. It's timing values are also right in line with the other two, but it is somewhere between the stock and Bama tunes as far as the timing / knock sensor relationship.

But, NONE of them really address the cam timing. What's the point of having that kind of technology and not taking advantage of it. Even if you don't make huge HP improvements, there is a TON to be gained in the mid-range with cam timing.

Bottom line is this, you can only stuff so much air into a naturally aspirated motor. It's pretty simple....you're working with about 14.2 psi of atmospheric pressure under fairly good conditions. What you have to do is maximize the amount of time the engine has to get that available air into the motor. In old school, non-variable, single cam motors this meant a trade-off of where you got your power, high or low in the RPM range. With VCT, you can control this.

So, look below. See the MAF, all about 41 lbs/min. See the timing, all around 26 - 27 degrees. See the Lambda (AFR's), the stock tune is actually the richest vs the Bama and SCT tunes. Same air, same fuel, same timing......result is close to the same power. This is what I call a smoothed tune, not a power tune.





 

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Discussion Starter #57 (Edited)
I'm interested to hear bama's thoughts on this. It makes sense.
I'm all for discussion, but ultimately I test everything. This is why I tell folks NOT to trust the butt dyno. We ALL want to think that the changes we make are making improvements, I'm just as guilty of this as the next guy. BUT, the problem is the butt dyno is directly connected to the wallet and we always think that the results are going to be proportionate to the money and time invested and this simply isn't the case.

The data logs don't lie. The dyno doesn't lie. The time slips don't lie.

This is why I caution guys when they THINK they are making a bunch more power and all they've really gotten is a tune that increases the torque demand at a given throttle position and makes you THINK you're getting more power. Drive a Chevy with the cammed throttle body lever and you'll know EXACTLY what I mean.....real touchy on the bottom, but dead flat on the top 25% of the travel.

Like I said earlier, all of my experience is tuning diesels, LS motors, and carbed motors. I build them, I tune them, I race them, and I push them for every last hundreth of a second I can. A motor, is a motor, is a motor......fuel, air, and timing make power.

I'll let you form your own opinion, all I can do is show my individual results. But, knowing what I know right now, I'd just get the tuning from SCT and call it good. Doing the "custom" thing here resulted in exactly SQUAT.
 

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I'm all for discussion, but ultimately I test everything. This is why I tell folks NOT to trust the butt dyno. We ALL want to think that the changes we make are making improvements, I'm just as guilty of this as the next guy. BUT, the problem is the butt dyno is directly connected to the wallet and we always think that the results are going to be proportionate to the money and time invested and this simply isn't the case.

The data logs don't lie. The dyno doesn't lie. The time slips don't lie.

This is why I caution guys when they THINK they are making a bunch more power and all they've really gotten is a tune that increases the torque demand at a given throttle position and makes you THINK you're getting more power. Drive a Chevy with the cammed throttle body lever and you'll know EXACTLY what I mean.....real touchy on the bottom, but dead flat on the top 25% of the travel.

Like I said earlier, all of my experience is tuning diesels, LS motors, and carbed motors. I build them, I tune them, I race them, and I push them for every last hundreth of a second I can. A motor, is a motor, is a motor......fuel, air, and timing make power.

I'll let you form your own opinion, all I can do is show my individual results. But, knowing what I know right now, I'd just get the tuning from SCT and call it good. Doing the "custom" thing here resulted in exactly SQUAT.

I believe you. I'm wondering if bama will chime in.


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^same here. I do appreciate you doing all this on the forum to educate us on your experience. I am even more sold on the trackey now as it promises 16hp I believe. I thought that seemed low because everyone says they are getting 30 hp on one of these tunes. But that's obviously not the case. Plus you get the engine braking and launch control annnnnd the loping idle ;)
 

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People are getting 30hp with the addition of other mods offroad x intake etc. Not just a tune by itself

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