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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all!

New on your forum, let me introduce myself: I moved here from France for work. I've been building and racing Two strokes motorcycles for 15 years but being in the US I wanted to discover what a V8 was... So I ended up finding my 66!

Strait, no rust, super nice black standard interior done approx 10 years ago, 10 feeter paint job (silver-blue), crapy 302 from the early 70's, top loader 4 speed close ratio, 8 inch original rear end, performer 289 intake, 1406 Edelbrock carb, nice long 3Y headers (unknown brand), H pipe 2" lines 40 series.

Since I bought it for Halloween I use it as my only and everyday car.

What have I done since then?
all ball joints, upper & lower control arms...
1" Armin/Shelby drop
1" lowering coils
24mm whiteline front sway bar
monte carlo bar
4.5 mid-eye leafs
rear sway bar
KYB shocks
Borgeson 14:1 power steering conversion (in progress)
Scott Drake aluminum radiator
new water pump (cast iron)
Overhauled my 600 Edelbrock
oil, spark plugs, thermostat, oil pressure sensor
Pertronix cheap eletronic conversion
starter motor (done last night)
gear box rebuild (new forks and the rest...)
drive shaft rebuild and balanced
SSBC front disc brakes - 4 pistons calipers
rear drum rebuild
double bowl MC + power brake + proportioning valve

So what's next? wheels I guess.
I think I want TorqThrust D 15x7 with 225/60 and 215/60... but not decided yet.

AND THE ENGINE ! and that's where I need help.
not that I don't feel confortable with doing that myself but to choose parts!!!
I'm gonna stay in the US for 1 or 2 more years then I will ship my baby to France so what I want is not 1/4 mile racing, it's more rally style driving with my friends who drive mini Coopers, Alfas, MGs...

my goal is around 300rwhp, little rough idle (to sound like a real muscle car) but I don't need to much RPM, more a wide band engine.

I'm thinking of buying a roller 302 short block and rebuild it slowly while continue using the one that's in the car.
I don't want to go for a complete upgrade kit from Edelbrock or something like that : way too easy, no fun !!!
I've read good things about TrickFlow TW heads... (AFR 165 also)
I've read good things about F303 cams with 1.6 rockers...
I've read good things about Edelbrock performer RPM intake...

Actualy I'm trying to understand a little better how Dynamic Compression Ratio works, how cam works...
when I make a 2 stroke engine I start by drawing the power curve I need and then I'm able to design and build the engine that will exaclty meet my wish. 4 stroke is for me a new world but I'm sure I'll understand better soon.

So guys, thanks for reading!
waiting for your advises,
 

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Welcome! If you wanted to get crazy, you could look into a stroker kit. Just remember as you increase your compression ratio, you have to go to higher octane.

As mentioned, you could always pull the driveline from a newer ford to get the modular motor if you don't care about it looking stock. This would also involve shock tower modifications or removal.

Good luck, and let us know if you have pictures!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I'm willing to keep it old school under the hood, not even a reverse water pump or an electric fan. From the VIN this car had a 289 with a 3 manual, I don't want a complete restomod, just upgrades to be confortable to drive but keeping the oldie spirit.
Engine swap are not alowed in my country but nobody will make the difference between a 289 and a roller 302.

I've seen the stroker kits, 331 and 347 on the 302 block.
how does it change the engine's power curve? I know the extra ci will give more torque but what about the curve's general shape?
I'd like you guys to guide me towards a classic well known and reliable engine configuration that would give me confort for every day driving and fun when ever I push the throttle.

:)

I think I like pretty much what these guys made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmWHzcgpImY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSwKF8muMNo
what's your opinion?
 

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14:1 steering? I thought stock was 21 or 20:1, I upgraded to a 16:1 and it's pretty hard to turn. Didn't even know they made a box for 14:1. Also what are your end goals for the car ? Daily driver? Drag car ? Corner carver?
 

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Discussion Starter #9
14:1 steering? I thought stock was 21 or 20:1, I upgraded to a 16:1 and it's pretty hard to turn. Didn't even know they made a box for 14:1. Also what are your end goals for the car ? Daily driver? Drag car ? Corner carver?
from what I found:
non GT / non power steering is 19:1 (what I actualy have)
non GT / power steering is 16:1
GT is always 16:1
14:1 is supposed to be a little better, kind of what is usualy found on rack & pinion stuff.

What's my goal : my everyday driver for the 2 coming years and alfter that the car should be in France where I'll use it as a sunday driver, fun car, meetings, maybe a few local up hill rally races for antiques.
But it must be well done and reliable: in France I will have no more parts, shipping will be expensive for any part.
Selling is not in my vacabulary: overseas I already have a full barn of toys : a Land Rover (1982), a french Citröen 2cv (1981), a Trabant (1965) from east germany, a Mini (1978), dozen of Vespa scooters (1950, 51, 52, 55, 56, 57, 62, 65, 72, 85, 92...) and a couple of moto X.

Budget for the engine?
no idea... what it takes... but staying reasonable... 2,5k? 3k?
meaning no fancy useless chrome parts, no chinese sxxx, no false saving, just a good choice of quality parts.
 

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from what I found:
non GT / non power steering is 19:1 (what I actualy have)
non GT / power steering is 16:1
GT is always 16:1
14:1 is supposed to be a little better, kind of what is usualy found on rack & pinion stuff.

What's my goal : my everyday driver for the 2 coming years and alfter that the car should be in France where I'll use it as a sunday driver, fun car, meetings, maybe a few local up hill rally races for antiques.
But it must be well done and reliable: in France I will have no more parts, shipping will be expensive for any part.
Selling is not in my vacabulary: overseas I already have a full barn of toys : a Land Rover (1982), a french Citröen 2cv (1981), a Trabant (1965) from east germany, a Mini (1978), dozen of Vespa scooters (1950, 51, 52, 55, 56, 57, 62, 65, 72, 85, 92...) and a couple of moto X.

Budget for the engine?
no idea... what it takes... but staying reasonable... 2,5k? 3k?
meaning no fancy useless chrome parts, no chinese sxxx, no false saving, just a good choice of quality parts.

Ohh rack and pinion, is that what you are going with? And I guess a better question is what hp/tq are you looking for. And buying a block and building it separately isn't a bad idea, especially if you want to keep driving the car while you build the engine. I've read 347s are a pretty stout engine for the size. I'm currently building a 390, had all the machine work done( polished crank, bore/home, line bore, and decked) top end kit and forged Pistons, were at 5ish k which is just about what you'd pay for a nice create engine, I know you said you wanted to figure it all out and build it yourself, but for the money I think I'd buy a creat engine. Just a thought.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
... for the money I think I'd buy a creat engine. Just a thought.

What??? Me? buying a crate engine? :lol:
that's like calling the towe truck.
and all my friends would make fun of me. I'm a killer at making and porting two strokes engines, there's just no way I buy a new engine!
I would like 250/300 rwhp reliable and fun.
My first idea is to go for a used roller 302 late 80's. I guess a good quality cast crank is enough for what I aim, why not an original one checked/machined and for the pistons I have no idea on the shape influence. Forged? Then a pair of Trick Flow or else, port them for hours as I love to do and assemble nicely, taking my time.
The thing is, it's been only a few month I try to understand what the possibilities are... I don't want to risk bad experience when I'm sure there are "classic" set ups that are well known on the seen to fit exactly my need.
 

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What??? Me? buying a crate engine? :lol:
that's like calling the towe truck.
and all my friends would make fun of me. I'm a killer at making and porting two strokes engines, there's just no way I buy a new engine!
I would like 250/300 rwhp reliable and fun.
My first idea is to go for a used roller 302 late 80's. I guess a good quality cast crank is enough for what I aim, why not an original one checked/machined and for the pistons I have no idea on the shape influence. Forged? Then a pair of Trick Flow or else, port them for hours as I love to do and assemble nicely, taking my time.
The thing is, it's been only a few month I try to understand what the possibilities are... I don't want to risk bad experience when I'm sure there are "classic" set ups that are well known on the seen to fit exactly my need.

Ha just a suggestion. Maybe you should look into building a 347 it's a stroked 302. You seem like you just don't want a cookie cutter engine.
 

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If you have 2 years to build, you could get pretty creative.

If you are looking for more of a corner carver, or Euro Killer, I'd definitely research the old 70's Trans Am race cars. Those cars did pretty well in that series for a few years. I doubt it isn't anything new by any means, but it could fit your skills nicely.

I'd like to see some type of high rev, built to take abuse kind of engine.


Sent from my iPhone using Mustang Evolution
 

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:welcome:
What part of France are you from.....I spent a lot of time in France when doing International business in the early to late 80's. I love Paris although haven't been back for awhile.
As for wheels..............I put these on my 66 GT Hipro when I restored it in the late 70's.
A good stroker for the 302 is 331 or 347.....it's easy to buy the complete rotating assembly and pretty simple to install. If you do decide to just buy a block and start from ground zero buy a roller block.......many more roller cam profiles available and much easier to live with. My personal preference are TrickFlow 170's or 190's depending on where you go with the cam........getting 300rwhp is pretty simple with a stroker motor and you can build something on the mild side.......on my 66 I went 4whl disc brakes...it was a GT so already had the front discs....I used a Versailles rearend because back then not many people were making 9" Ford rear brake kits.....and since the 9" although a little heavier has some many more choices for gears and much more strength it's what I used. I may even think about putting an Explorer 8.8 disc brake rearend in the Mustang as they fit without much work.
One thing about the Mustang front end that needs to be changed is the LCA, the ball joint angle is totally wrong when you do the Shelby drop...this is what I used on my 70 Maverick for drag racing....Mustang Front End Individual Components 1964, 1965, 1966 and also used their strut braces...http://www.globalwest.net/64-66-mustang-front-end-individual-components.html...also used their rear springs to take care of wheel hop and lower the back of the 66 Mustang....their products are really nice...and work.
 

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For the Shelby drop I bought a kit from mustangs plus that included a wedge for the upper ball joints to make everything back with the right angles. Just an FYI. Also not sure how the 66 are aligned but they make an eccentric washer delete kit, which just replaces the washer with a square one because if you wider or stickier tires up front the washer can move which happens to me a few times.
 

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For the Shelby drop I bought a kit from mustangs plus that included a wedge for the upper ball joints to make everything back with the right angles. Just an FYI. Also not sure how the 66 are aligned but they make an eccentric washer delete kit, which just replaces the washer with a square one because if you wider or stickier tires up front the washer can move which happens to me a few times.
The concentric washer was replaced in the late 70's and a square one came as OE.

---------- Post added at 02:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:00 PM ----------

For the Shelby drop I bought a kit from mustangs plus that included a wedge for the upper ball joints to make everything back with the right angles. Just an FYI. Also not sure how the 66 are aligned but they make an eccentric washer delete kit, which just replaces the washer with a square one because if you wider or stickier tires up front the washer can move which happens to me a few times.
The concentric washer was replaced in the late 60's and a square one came as OE.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Starting from a roller 302 short block : yes, that's what I want.

Building a stroker : the only thing I fear is that knowing myself and the way I work, this is gonna end up being a beast way too powerfull for that good old 66 !
So yes, the idea seduces me pretty much...
But I've gotta find the way to know what kind of power curve shape I'm gonna end up with.
For a strocker, what's best? 331 or 347?


@ Olerodder : I'm from the south, Marseille/Avignon area... Provence ! Grapes and lavender.
 

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The reason I mentioned a stroker rotating assembly is that you can get good rods, pistons/pins/rings, bearings and crank cheaper than buying them separately.
As I mentioned in another thread...HP numbers mean nothing....it's what is under the dyno curve that counts...Torque is what makes HP.......not the other way around.
With that said a good 331 or 347 will make 350HP/400HP at the crankshaft with little effort other than picking the right parts and a stroker doesn't have to spin to 7000 RPM to make power...the power comes much lower in the RPM band. Remember that the cam is the brain and the rest of the motor follows along.......if you have picked the right parts they will work together.
Starting out with a short block is ok, it's just that you will throw away all of the internal parts.......crank, rods, pistons, cam, bearings etc., etc.
Buy a 302 roller bare block from Summitt Racing and start from their...it should already be align honed and bore the cylinders to 4.030".........by a good 3.25" stroker crank, H-beam or I-beam rods, good pistons like Diamond, Ross or ???? As for the cam, the E303 is extremely old and there are much better cams from Comp, Crower or ???? One thing to keep in mind during selecting the heads is to look at something that will flow more than 300cfm @0.550 lift on the intake side and at least 225cfm @ 0.500 lift on the exhaust. I'd also be looking at probably 2.06 or 2.08 intake valves and 1.6 exhaust valves....the chamber would probably be no more than 64cc and maybe as small as 58cc. The cam should be a split duration around 274/280 and I'd go hydraulic rollers with 1.6 Comp SS rockers. You're going to have to measure the push rod length and I'd try Comp or Trend....my two favorites. This curve should be really good from 1800 rpm to 6500rpm and still pull down some pretty good gas mileage if you have the right gears.............not overdone....just enough.
The rest of motor has any number of different ways to go...............it you want something that is going to last and be spot on reliable buy the best possible parts you can.........I've built a few of the SBF strokers in my day and my last one was a 408 cubic inch stroker 351w that ran a single 850cfm carb and had peak 650HP at the crank @6800rpm and and 544lbft of torque @5700rpm....my Maverick ran 9.8's in the 1/4 mile and weighed 3200lbs with me in the seat.
Cubic inches mean cubic torque............which is what makes HP.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
OK, so maybe I could play it mild going for a 331... stroker but not crazy too much hp.

I've seen stroker kits from Scat for about 1000$ (9000 series, not the 4340)
with cast light weight crank, I beam rods and forged pistons.
I believe that with no juice, no super charger and no turbo it is enought isn't it?

what's the main difference between the piston shapes?
what should I chose for my use? flat top? Dished? domed?
does it depend on my heads choice?
 
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