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OK, so maybe I could play it mild going for a 331... stroker but not crazy too much hp.

I've seen stroker kits from Scat for about 1000$ (9000 series, not the 4340)
with cast light weight crank, I beam rods and forged pistons.
I believe that with no juice, no super charger and no turbo it is enought isn't it?

what's the main difference between the piston shapes?
what should I chose for my use? flat top? Dished? domed?
does it depend on my heads choice?
Just make sure you get a kit that has been balanced and comes with good bearings and rings, like Clevitte 77 or King, and good Moly rings...You can also find kits that include the front harmonic balancer and flex plate that are already balanced with the rotating assembly.........my guess is around $1500 as the $1000 you gave was for a bare bones kit.
So, without taking up a lot of space here....as I mentioned earlier, the cam is the brain....so depending on what you pick that will give you a good indication of what compression you want to run and that will lead you to the heads and chamber size which will lead you back to the piston type...my guess would be flat top or slightly dished....again depending on the heads and chamber size.
Domed heads are mostly for racing and higher compression pistons...flat tops can get up to high 10's with small chamber heads to high 9's with larger chamber heads...dished are used a lot on lower compression engines and boosted motors to reduce the compression....also not sure what Octane gas you want to run....over in Europe the gas is different than here.........and a little more costly per gallon/liter.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
where can I look for these kits? what site?

for french gas at the pump, 2 choices:
regular is called RON 95/MON 85
and the higher octane is called RON 97/MON 87

I don't think I need a flex plate for my application: I have a 4 speed top loader close ratio MANUAL transmission.

What kind of cam would you advise for my use?
For the heads, my latest guess would be Trick Flows, but I have to calculate which ones are good for me.

understood for piston shape, thanks! so no domed pistons for me.

What do you mean by "make sure the rest of the coupe can handle it" ?
will I need a 9 inch rear end?
big sway bars, traction bars, export braces, montecarlo bar... what else would I need? welded subframe connectors?
 

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The more I think about this build the more I think you should go with a 347 stroker motor...reason is that it will make as much power as the 331 but at a lower RPM range.........which equates to more reliability and a motor that will need a less aggressive cam and possibly smaller heads. Just my thoughts.
For the kits either Summit Racing or JEGS are good and their prices are hard to beat.
I forgot you had a 4spd.....putting a 5spd/6spd in would certainly be be better if you ever hit the Autoban.....you will need a flywheel and clutch setup and at least the flywheel will need to be balanced with the motor.
As I said, an hydraulic roller would be the way to go and be the most reliable.
My suggestion would be to call TrickFlow...tell them what HP/TQ you are looking for and have them steer you to one of their head/cam kits and also an intake manifold...are you going to use a carburetor of fuel injection, this makes a big difference in what you will need in the fuel system.
What I meant is that the 66 has no frame and is about as good as a wet noodle.
You will want an Xport bar along with monty bar as the firewall is extremely thin sheetmetal.........if you have front disc brakes that's good, if not you will need them along with putting disc brakes on the rear....the stock rearend may not stand up to the HP/TQ you will giving it. Factory HiPro...289ci/271hp came with a 9" rearend and although they are heavy they are also pretty much bullet proof. As I mentioned you can take a newer 8.8 Ford disc brake rearend out of the wreck Explorer and with a little work it will fit. Yes, you will need frame connectors and reinforce the front spring hanger locations and either buy new springs or install traction bars like the 66 Shelby had. Also don't forget about the weak front lower A arms and strut rod...I put links to Global West and I have used their products......a little expensive but very worth the money.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-150110/overview/
 

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Discussion Starter #24
traction bars are in my living room!

What scares me is to end up with too much HP. for the price, I have no real budget set up but I want to keep in mind the value of the car (potential value because I have no intention to sell)... So I don't want to end up spending 8000$ on the engine.
When I see that I find fully rebuilt engines for less than 3000 for me there's a problem: it has to be cheap chinese parts!

So, how much is this engine gonna cost me?
1g for crank & pistons
2g for heads & rockers
1g for the rest of the parts... cam, timing kit, oil pump...
What about the short block? shall I find a used one for like 300 and take it to the machine shop for another 5 or 600 or shall I buy a short block from summit "ready to go" ?
So we're already over 5g with no intake, no carb, no ignition, no 9" rear end... I started this idea of building an engine for 3g!!!
That might end up with GT40 heads self ported
:-D
 

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Ok, I guess I lost sight of the $3000 budget.
Sure, you can buy a junk yard motor and take it to a good machinist....if you know a good one....and you are still going to spend $700 to have the block align honed and bored, hot tanked, and mag'd.
So, what have you got on your current 289 that can be swapped to a new "long block". What intake and carb do you have, what headers do you have, what ignition do you have....You can build a motor for $3000....although you may have to settle for less expensive parts....I think the $700 for the Summit block is a good starting point as it has been align honed and bored....$1000 for the crank, pistons, rods, bearings and rings and you are left with $1300 to buy the cam kit and heads. You could always just buy a hydraulic cam and not go with a roller cam....and settle for 300 rwhp.........
 

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Discussion Starter #27
if 3g is not enought I can go higher with no problem, it's just a matter of "is the spend worth it?" if yes... lets go!
;)

what I have?
- an "Edelbrock 289" intake with an aditional little raise. I don't know if that will fit my project. Would a Performer or a Performer RPM would match better the heads?
- an Edelbrock 1406 600cfm that I've overhauled, it's in perfect condition. Will it be too small for my 300rwhp project?
- 3Y long headers unknown brand, maybe some kind of Scott Drake cheap series... they might be too small. As well, my 2" H pipe will be too small, I will have to go for a 2.5" pipe.
- my ignition was using good old points, I've installed a simple cheap pickup from Pertronix that works great (from all I've spent on this car, this was my best buy), a new distributor cap and 8mm silicon plug wires. Can I continue using this ignition or will I need an upgrade?

What I keep:
plug wires, water pump, 2R aluminum radiator, 6 blade fan, pulleys, alterator, starter motor, oil sensor, water sensor, K&N big air filter.
(all of these are new)

The rest of my actual engine is an old 302 bone stock (early 70's). looks in pretty good condition from under the car with no oil pan...
I'll try to sell (as well as the headers) when I'm done but it actualy takes me to work & grocery every day.
 

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Machine work alone for my 390 was 1000 for just the machining work. No bearings or freeze plugs or anything. If you have to buy a block and then have it machined it might be cheaper to buy a bare block to start with. I'd call around first to find a place to do the work and check out prices for the work.
 

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if 3g is not enought I can go higher with no problem, it's just a matter of "is the spend worth it?" if yes... lets go!
;)

what I have?
- an "Edelbrock 289" intake with an aditional little raise. I don't know if that will fit my project. Would a Performer or a Performer RPM would match better the heads?
- an Edelbrock 1406 600cfm that I've overhauled, it's in perfect condition. Will it be too small for my 300rwhp project?
- 3Y long headers unknown brand, maybe some kind of Scott Drake cheap series... they might be too small. As well, my 2" H pipe will be too small, I will have to go for a 2.5" pipe.
- my ignition was using good old points, I've installed a simple cheap pickup from Pertronix that works great (from all I've spent on this car, this was my best buy), a new distributor cap and 8mm silicon plug wires. Can I continue using this ignition or will I need an upgrade?

What I keep:
plug wires, water pump, 2R aluminum radiator, 6 blade fan, pulleys, alterator, starter motor, oil sensor, water sensor, K&N big air filter.
(all of these are new)

The rest of my actual engine is an old 302 bone stock (early 70's). looks in pretty good condition from under the car with no oil pan...
I'll try to sell (as well as the headers) when I'm done but it actualy takes me to work & grocery every day.
Ok, rather than go back and forth on this let me think about the motor build until early next week as I'm in the process of building a V8 Flathead motor and will be burning the midnight oil for the next 4 or 5 days.
As I mentioned above, there are cheaper alternatives for parts and unfortunately most of the parts are manufactured overseas...or at least cast overseas....and shipped back to USofA for final machine work....it only takes 35% work content here in the good ole US to be able to put a made in the USA sticker on the product. SCAT, Eagle and others have been doing this for more than 2 decades.
So, there are two ways to tackle this and I will outline both ways and put some prices together for you....as long as you can wait a few days. I know you mentioned you had some new parts and wanted to use them...I agree on some and not on others and I'll explain those also.
Hope that is Ok with you.

Machine work alone for my 390 was 1000 for just the machining work. No bearings or freeze plugs or anything. If you have to buy a block and then have it machined it might be cheaper to buy a bare block to start with. I'd call around first to find a place to do the work and check out prices for the work.
Ty, I'm not trying to be an ole fart....well I am.....and please don't take this personal because I have no idea what machine work you had done on the 390.....Machine shops and the quality of their work are not always reflected in the amount they charge. I have no idea of a good shop in Texas and I'm sure there are people on this forum that can answer that.
Two important things to look for in an engine machine shop is 1., that they have worked on a lot of the brand engine you are bring them and know that engine like the palm of their hand........2., they will give you references that you can talk to.
When I did the refresh on my 408 I had to use another block as mine would've had to go 0.045 and I just didn't want to go that far. I had the work done in San Jose, CA by Bob Gromm who has been featured in many magazines for his head work and machine work on both Ford and Chevy street/race/roundy round motors.
He did the following;
Line Bored and installed 4blt mains on 2/3/4 mains on OE block - $450
Bored and honed 8 cylinders for my Probe pistons to my specs - $250
Polished and Nitrided the Eagle Forged Crank and set clearances
to my specs - $350
Did priority oiling for the block, tapped into the front galley and ran a line to the timing chain/distributor area, ported the oil pump and block galley and ground the valley and set the oil pump pickup to my spec - $250

The total bill came to $1300....and that included hot tanking/checking for cracks and oil and freeze plugs...granted this was 3 years ago...after I carefully assembled the motor it made 642 HP at 6800 and 544 ftlbs at 5700....then went 9.801 in the 1/4 in my 3200lb Maverick. The point I'm trying to prove is that this motor had all used parts, crank, rods, pistons, heads, intake, carb, ignition, headers and cam profile....and the motor had been run for almost 9 seasons of racing before I tore it down for a refresh...if you buy the best parts you can afford...have someone who knows what they are doing blueprint the block and set up proper clearances you will have a motor that you last a long time....assuming you maintain the motor....and this motor saw more stress in its life than dozens normal motors.
 

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None taken , i was just thinking ifyour going for an all new everything and have no need anything but a block it might be cost effective to just buy a bare block from someone. Perhaps a strong block or aluminum. Since there's no need for all the stock parts. For 1000, I guess I forgot about resizing my rods, but i got my block decked, bored/Honed and line Honed. Only, No freeze plugs and no oil galley plugs. Just machine work so 840$ for all that work. But that's why I suggested that he call a shop in is area for prices for work. Too see if it's worth getting a block vs a jy motor.
 

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Aftermarket blocks like World Products and Dart are pretty expensive, running from about $1800 to $2700 for cast and just shy of $4000 for aluminum. There are Ford Racing blocks and they aren't much cheaper....my preference in building a street motor is always a seasoned block....just my preference.

This block from Summit is a pretty good starting point as it has been line honed, decked, bored and mag'd for cracks...plus you get the spec sheet showing what they have done....and it's a good price.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-150110/overview/

Choosing a machine shop is almost like choosing a wife....something you don't want to have to do over....finding good ones that know anything about SBF motors is even harder.
The other point I was trying to make is that there are very few companies here in the US making their own cranks/rods/cams. Cunningham, Bryant, Crower, Ross and others are USofA made from womb to tomb.....unfortunately those companies products are also expensive....But then again the MT82 is made in China.........???????
 

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Geeze never looked at aluminum blocks or a "high performance" block didn't think they would be that much. But either way that one from summit would be my choice, especially with what you said about pick a shop is like picking a wife, seems like there is a bunch of shady shops out there, I drove two hours for my shop sense they were the best. Plus the fact that you wouldn't have to disassemble the block transport it to the shop and all the other stuff. Just no head ache to deal with.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
little question : is an H pipe of 2.5" what I need?
long or short headers?
 

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Discussion Starter #36
This block from Summit is a pretty good starting point as it has been line honed, decked, bored and mag'd for cracks...plus you get the spec sheet showing what they have done....and it's a good price.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-150110/overview/
Yes, 750 for a block that is ready to go seems more than fair!
where's the trap? :blink:
it seems cheaper than the machining cost.

Eastwood ford blue ceramic paint and it's ready for assembly!

By the way, I've seen blocks with the interior painted...
good or bad idea?
 

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Yes, 750 for a block that is ready to go seems more than fair!
where's the trap? :blink:
it seems cheaper than the machining cost.

Eastwood ford blue ceramic paint and it's ready for assembly!

By the way, I've seen blocks with the interior painted...
good or bad idea?
As with everything there is never a free lunch....Summit or their supplier buys the blocks for almost nothing....and does the machine work in a large production shop...most likely....therefore reducing the costs.
As with any part you buy new or used you need to check to make sure everything is up to your standards....this includes grinding away any flashing on the motor, checking each bore to make sure you know exactly what the bore is, general cleaning with hot soap and water...then followed by cleaning the exterior of the block with a degreaser and running pipe cleaners down all of the oil galleries....then chase all of the treads with a "Chase", not a tap. A tap takes metal away and a "Chase" does not but will clean the thread.........this is just standard procedure to make sure the block is spotless.
Now, to blueprint an engine a machine shop should hone each cylinder to match each individual piston for a specific clearance....this is important because each piston is not exactly the same size as the other.....and they can very by 0.0005 or more....and if you are putting together a motor make sure it gets put together right the first time.....then have the machine shop check the deck height and mains to make sure the previous work was done correctly....attention to detail is just one of the reasons motors I've built live long and perform well.
So, just buying the block is just the first step....unless you want to build one half way. There is a lot more to building a motor than just buying parts and assembling it.
As for headers...I've always put long tube headers on as I believe they give better performance than shorties....in some cases shorty headers do very little to increase HP/TQ over OE manifolds. Remember that smaller headers are better than larger diameter.....I would say that 1-5/8" or no more than 1-3/4" headers would work great...yes, 2.5" tail pipes with an H or X will work great.
Painting the interior of the motor is great as it allows the oil to return faster, and in some cases is great....just remember than oil hitting the crank and rods causes friction and that causes heat....also the crank hitting the oil takes energy to push the oil away....one reason for using a windage tray/screen...and also depends on the oil pan configuration....stock oil pans are mostly junk and do nothing to control oil flow/cavitation/sloshing back and forth.
Also, unless you clean the block spotlessly this paint/expoy could come off and cause some major issues going through the oiling system...take out bearings, rings....ect.
 

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Discussion Starter #38
I'm far from being a begginer using a hammer for the first time, I'm a mechanical engineer with 15 years experience... I'm also a 2 strokes crazy builder: 20 years of engine redesign and tuning for race on track, I sell specialy designed cylinder heads with wierd shapes on demand and all kinds of goodies. I drive a 1962 Vespa scooter that blows 28rwhp instead of 6 using a home made electronic fuel injection: 100mph on 10 inch wheels!
So since I moved in the US I'm realy excited to discover the universe of V8 and classic american muscles!!!
When I build engines, I'm not just throwing parts togeither, in a mechanical assembly I know that every adjustments counts.
I'm not (yet) asking "how to" do things but I'm looking forward using your experience on what parts to choose to achieve my goal, where to purchase my parts... I have no idea yet about how every part influences the shape of a V8 power curve, I'm not even able to tell what power curve I want!

I would like to make a car that is fun in about every situation... a good compromise.
enought power to smoke the tires and have a decent accel,
not too much power to stay reliable,
a tipical muscle car sound but not loud to the point neibours throw rocks at me when I come home late,
I don't want it to rev higher than 6500ish,
I want my engine bay to look all original style, no chrome, no electric fan, no EFI, no electric water pump, no electric fuel pump... Just good quality bullet proof products that will last long.
I do think that if in 66 this body was able to handle 270hp it can handle a little more with a few easy upgrades without going into roll cage!
I'm sure that's a common request and that technical specs to get there are pretty standard.
So even if I have no determined budget that doesn't mean that there's no limit... I will not spend 10g on the engine of a car when the value of the car will never reach 20! this is no K code fast back, no show car, no race car of any kind. I want to keep it simple.

I guess that the idea of throwing a complete Edelbrock kit on a regular 302 would meet my need... (heads/intake/cam/carb) But I feel like that's the easy way and doing so I won't learn that much!
I would like to understand a bit what's going on.

And as soon as my engine is done, I want to road trip it from Texas to the salt flats! that's my kind of tourism!
:D
 

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The problem with classic are that you'll never get your money out of the unless you start with a good she'll to start with and spend 30k on it. And you said you don't plan on selling it so I wouldn't be that concerned with breaking even on the price. I'm not suggesting spending 10k on a motor but I think a more accurate estimate for an engine build is about 5k. And to make the car handle mor hp it's not too difficult to to reinforce the body to make it stiff enough. Especially since you said your mechanically inclined you should be able to build some sub frame connectors and make a cross member connecting the two. I'm. It sure about 66's but there and many people who have made a set of their own for 67/8. All of which will add value to the car in the end so it may be something you should look into.
 

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I'm far from being a begginer using a hammer for the first time, I'm a mechanical engineer with 15 years experience... I'm also a 2 strokes crazy builder: 20 years of engine redesign and tuning for race on track, I sell specialy designed cylinder heads with wierd shapes on demand and all kinds of goodies. I drive a 1962 Vespa scooter that blows 28rwhp instead of 6 using a home made electronic fuel injection: 100mph on 10 inch wheels!
So since I moved in the US I'm realy excited to discover the universe of V8 and classic american muscles!!!
When I build engines, I'm not just throwing parts togeither, in a mechanical assembly I know that every adjustments counts.
I'm not (yet) asking "how to" do things but I'm looking forward using your experience on what parts to choose to achieve my goal, where to purchase my parts... I have no idea yet about how every part influences the shape of a V8 power curve, I'm not even able to tell what power curve I want!

I would like to make a car that is fun in about every situation... a good compromise.
enought power to smoke the tires and have a decent accel,
not too much power to stay reliable,
a tipical muscle car sound but not loud to the point neibours throw rocks at me when I come home late,
I don't want it to rev higher than 6500ish,
I want my engine bay to look all original style, no chrome, no electric fan, no EFI, no electric water pump, no electric fuel pump... Just good quality bullet proof products that will last long.
I do think that if in 66 this body was able to handle 270hp it can handle a little more with a few easy upgrades without going into roll cage!
I'm sure that's a common request and that technical specs to get there are pretty standard.
So even if I have no determined budget that doesn't mean that there's no limit... I will not spend 10g on the engine of a car when the value of the car will never reach 20! this is no K code fast back, no show car, no race car of any kind. I want to keep it simple.

I guess that the idea of throwing a complete Edelbrock kit on a regular 302 would meet my need... (heads/intake/cam/carb) But I feel like that's the easy way and doing so I won't learn that much!
I would like to understand a bit what's going on.

And as soon as my engine is done, I want to road trip it from Texas to the salt flats! that's my kind of tourism!
:D
Hope I didn't offend you with my comments.
Without knowing your personal experience on SBF motors I tried to lay it out straight up without any frosting on top.
It's a small world...........I have been a mechanical engineer for over 45 years and drag racing in NHRA for over 35 years and spent over 10 years racing in SCCA.....building most of my own cars from the ground up.....back in the 60's I didn't have 2 cents to rub together so you had to get real creative to be competitive.
I have also designed heads....for Ford Flathead V8's...and the flathead motors they were on set some records at The Bonneville Salt Flats and El Mirage years ago...they were based on old designs from Harley Davidson Flat Head racing development in the 30's/40's. So, I guess we have a few things in common although I've got 50 years on you. I have enclosed a picture of 289 ci Ford Flathead Motor with my own two piece head design along with my own header design.........stock the motor was 85 HP and 239 ci....on the dyno it did 315 HP at 5200 rpm.
The 66 was a great car back in the day......today they lack steering response, stopping power, cornering ability and the platform is as a mentioned early something like a wet noodle. You don't need a roll cage unless you are going to race the car....Bonneville, Silver States Classic, El Mirage....even then not until you get over 130mph, plus they take up too much space in the car. Good triangular supporting between the shock towers and firewall is good start, changing the front end geometry using Global West components, putting some decent disc brakes up front and in the rear along with better tires and and rims.
Reinforcing the front rear spring eye mounting, adding subframe connectors along with putting some jacking rails under the car so you don't have to jack the car up on the body seam....then a decent set of rear springs and good adjustable shocks front and rear and you've got a good platform that will take whatever you want to throw at it.........So, one last thing before I go out and burn some midnight oil.....building a 300/350 HP motor that is reliable doesn't cost any more than building a 400/450 HP motor....and the 400+ HP SBF will be as reliable as the 300+......and will be easy to drive around town assuming you don't put 4:56's in the rear. It's kind of like cooking for just one person is a lot harder than cooking for two.......and doesn't cost any more. So, if you really only want 300 HP I would suggest building a good short block and working with 69 351w 4v heads...........that way you can put your own spin on head mods...and there are a few.
I've got a list started with suggestions and parts I should have done in a couple of days........Ton copain John
 

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